tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post4204052104142149969..comments2022-04-13T09:08:07.220+03:00Comments on Biur Chametz: False positives can be deadlyZman Biurhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05593492318098902028noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-1477536958771038882005-06-21T19:07:00.000+03:002005-06-21T19:07:00.000+03:00We've had several children, in several differe...We've had several children, in several different countries, under different medical regimes, and indeed, the Israeli was the worst in terms of tests and paranoia. We always rejected all routine scans and tests for the same reasons you give here, but the pressure was heaviest in Israel. Ultimately, towards the end of that pregnancy the doctor came up with some "medical indication" for an ultrasound, but we went for a second opinion first instead. The ultimate justification given for the need for an ultrasound? <i>Sheket naphsi</i> (Peace of mind.) <br><br>Oh, the problem? The "baby was too small". All 9lbs of him.The Observerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13538298373879728491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-20684773023813531282005-06-22T10:04:00.000+03:002005-06-22T10:04:00.000+03:00I've just been told of a case where genetic te...I've just been told of a case where genetic testing indicated a problem which is apparently statistically associated with lower intelligence (about 20% more often than usual!). The parents were encouraged by their doctors to abort.<br><br>Ultimately, they decided not to, and now they are nervously following their baby's development in fear of mental problems. Who does that help exactly?<br><br>It's shocking to me that anyone could advise abortion on the basis of a 20% statistical association of <i>anything</i>, let alone something as vague as low intelligence.<br><br>Yes, this was in Israel.Zman Biurhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05593492318098902028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-49032763621239410292005-06-22T11:42:00.000+03:002005-06-22T11:42:00.000+03:00Your post (as well as Rabbi Brody's) does brin...Your post (as well as Rabbi Brody's) does bring up valid points. <br>That's all well and good and I believe every parent must be well informed of all the statistics, in favor and against the ultrasound test - prior to making an automatic decision to have the test. <br><br>However, what I can not comprehend are the Rabbi's promises the baby will be healthy (with G-d's help), as described several times in Rabbi Brody's posts. <br>Such promises are also "guesses" at most and can plant false hopes, which can be as harmful as any of the risks mentioend in both your posts.... <br><br>Rabbi Brody lists the number of baby's he has saved in this manner. He does not list how many baby's were born with defects after he promised a healthy baby despites doctor's concerns. I'd be interested to learn that figure.Daylihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14442505623626969295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-9537646891097721982005-06-22T13:11:00.000+03:002005-06-22T13:11:00.000+03:00Dayli,I don't see where Rabbi Brody says he pr...Dayli,<br><br>I don't see where Rabbi Brody says he promised a baby would be healthy (though he does say R' Ovadiah did). Certainly I agree that would be irresponsible.<br><br>At most, a rabbi - or doctor - can offer sincere best wishes and prayers, while reassuring parents that serious birth defects are rare and that prenatal tests can be in error. They should be discouraged from making rash decisions under pressure.<br><br>Even where defects are positively identified, most birth defects are either minor and have no severe impact on quality of life, or are so major that the baby cannot survive for long. Who are we to decide which abnormalities are significant enough to warrant preventing a life from being born?<br><br>Even if it were possible, do we really want a world in which everyone is born physically perfect?Zman Biurhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05593492318098902028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-73602468942506270102005-06-23T01:15:00.000+03:002005-06-23T01:15:00.000+03:00>I don't see where Rabbi Brody says he prom...>I don't see where Rabbi Brody says he promised a baby would be healthy (though he does say R' Ovadiah did). Certainly I agree that would be irresponsible.<br><br>It would be irresponsible for you and me to make such a promise, but if Rav Ovadiah made the promise, I wouldn't knock it.yaakhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08179304707239865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-80798987889991355702005-09-29T22:48:00.000+03:002005-09-29T22:48:00.000+03:00I just posted about my own experiencec with my old...I just posted about my own experiencec with my oldest child, whose life was saved because of an issue diagnosed during a routine ultrasound (in Israel, it so happens), where there was no other indication that anything was wrong.<br><br>I'm not going to suggest that ultrasound at each routine check-up is necessary, or that it makes sense to panic if there's a potential problem; but ultrasound - and this is from as personal an experience as you can get - saves lives.ADDeRabbihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11749876612695930184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-64944795047842154842005-09-30T10:43:00.000+03:002005-09-30T10:43:00.000+03:00ADDeRabbi,First, let me join you in gratitude that...ADDeRabbi,<br><br>First, let me join you in gratitude that your child's life was saved due to prenatal ultrasound. It's easy to get caught up in statistics and forget that there are real lives at stake.<br><br>Clearly there are rare circumstances such as yours where prenatal ultrasound can indeed save an infant's life. Speaking in terms of medical evidence, though, the statistics do not support the claim that prenatal ultrasound improves overall outcomes. The <i>poseik</i> you mention in <a href="http://adderabbi.blogspot.com/2005/09/ultra-orthodox-vs-ultra-sound.html" rel="nofollow">your post</a> may have been relying on anecdote and intuition, but had he relied on medical evidence he may well have reached the same conclusion.<br><br>Any medical decision is ultimately based on a consideration and balancing of risks, and people can be harmed by the wrong decision in their particular case, even if it may be the right decision "statistically".<br><br>I don't know if any studies have been conducted in Israel, but I wouldn't be surprised if far more healthy babies - or those with insignificant imperfections - are aborted due to ultrasound scans than the number of sick babies whose lives are saved.Zman Biurhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05593492318098902028noreply@blogger.com