tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post8879030116457924785..comments2022-04-13T09:08:07.220+03:00Comments on Biur Chametz: Pikuach nefesh and "land for peace"Zman Biurhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05593492318098902028noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-25383503180269232092005-09-06T19:26:00.000+03:002005-09-06T19:26:00.000+03:00I know this is silly but, "When Rabin arrived...I know this is silly but, "When Rabin arrived, he taught" and what did Sharon teach?Soccer Dadhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16142724823098073038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-49555426246415725062005-09-06T19:36:00.000+03:002005-09-06T19:36:00.000+03:00Oh, no! Now I'm hearing that line of the Talmu...Oh, no! Now I'm hearing that line of the Talmud read in Rabin's voice....Zman Biurhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05593492318098902028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-68139535864860238202005-09-07T06:47:00.000+03:002005-09-07T06:47:00.000+03:00Just a small point. I don't recognize the rig...Just a small point. I don't recognize the right of someone, anyone, no matter "how great a rav" who lives in chutz l'Aretz to posken on anything connected to Aretz. And that includes aliyah.Batyahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13704018627639047480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-20001427238804943502005-09-07T12:44:00.000+03:002005-09-07T12:44:00.000+03:00Batya,While I appreciate how you feel, I don't...Batya,<br><br>While I appreciate how you feel, I don't think that's a realistic attitude. The halacha has always developed through interaction between rabbis throughout the Jewish people. Any rabbi sufficiently expert in the sources to be considered a <i>posek</i> should be capable of rendering a ruling on any topic in the halacha.<br><br>Would you reject the authority of the Babylonian Talmud on matters related to the Land? What about the Rambam? Rashi? etc.<br><br>Most rabbis since the destruction of the second temple have lived outside the land, and the halacha - on all subjects - is derived from their rulings no less than from those living in it. In fact, Rambam is considered the preeminent authority for mitzvot hatluyot ba'aretz.<br><br>I think the relevant questions here are about how to apply the halachic sources, not who is rendering the decisions.Zman Biurhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05593492318098902028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-42464771706441643572005-09-08T09:51:00.000+03:002005-09-08T09:51:00.000+03:00ZB,Land For Peace:THE TRUE JEWISH ROADMAPNetanel L...ZB,<br><br>Land For Peace:<br><br><a href="http://israelnationalnews.com/english/newspaper/torah/ask-rabbi-13-Jun-03.htm" rel="nofollow">THE TRUE JEWISH ROADMAP</a><br><br>Netanel Livni's coments to the following <a href="http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2005/07/28/misunderstood/" rel="nofollow">Cross Currents post</a>.Cosmic Xhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13880746347107372827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-24575624257075543082005-09-08T12:06:00.000+03:002005-09-08T12:06:00.000+03:00More seriously, a number of years ago (I think abo...More seriously, a number of years ago (I think about 1989) I heard a shiur from Rabbi Frand. (I might have told you this in the past.) In short his conclusion was that it was a political decision. I mentioned this to a friend and he said that Rav Schachter said the same thing. I know that Rav Schachter now has a different view of things. Some idiots refer to him as "moving to the right." I suspect that he, like Rav Ovadia Yosef, has seen the results and concluded that surrendering land (at least under the current circumstances) is what's <i>pikuach nefesh</i>.Soccer Dadhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16142724823098073038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-54327682027042615022005-09-08T12:42:00.000+03:002005-09-08T12:42:00.000+03:00Cosmic,Thanks. But your first link doesn't rea...Cosmic,<br><br>Thanks. But your first link doesn't really address halachic sources. Many of the comments on your second link are excellent summaries of the halachic issues, though I don't think any of them quite address my question here: How can the concept of pikuach nefesh, which is relevant only to individuals, be legitimately applied to issues of public policy?<br><br><br>David,<br><br>R' Schachter most recently set out his halachic analysis in <a href="http://www.yutorah.org/showShiur.cfm?shiurID=710777" rel="nofollow">this audio shiur</a>. I wouldn't call it right-wing, but neither is it left-wing. He certainly accepts that society can legitimately decide certain parts of the land of Israel cannot be held militarily. On whose authority that decision can be made is a more complex issue. I don't remember him suggesting that pikuach nefesh is a determining factor, though. (I haven't listened to the shiur in some months now!)Zman Biurhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05593492318098902028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-50247828804408154662007-08-08T10:07:00.000+03:002007-08-08T10:07:00.000+03:00B"HWow, this is one of the best comments I...B"H<br><br>Wow, this is one of the best comments I've read on the subject.<br><br>I am not aware that the Lubavitcher Rebbe EVER sanctioned giving Land for peace, in fact the opposite seems to be true, as we see <a href="http://www.truepeace.org/defense.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br><br>I share your apprehension in contradicting any of our Rabbis who support "land for peace," especially Rav Soloveichik, but if the Rebbe said it is forbidden I can't accept any other opinion (even though I don't feel free to criticize others). After all, the Rebbe said <b>we can't seperate Pikuach Nefesh from holding onto the land. They are one and the same.</b> If we give up land, we almost certainly will cause Jews to die who wouldn't otherwise, and that is always usser under any circumstances.<br><br>I have to hand it to you, the way you have thought this through. Much better than I could have done. Yasher Koach!ytbahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07850949658843684194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-19995686649865298182007-08-09T21:10:00.000+03:002007-08-09T21:10:00.000+03:00ytba,Thanks for your kind words. I still wish I co...ytba,<br><br>Thanks for your kind words. I still wish I could find someone who can explain the central question of this post - how can pikuach nefesh possibly be applied to the land-for-peace question?<br><br>Regarding the Lubavitcher, I certainly never suggested that he sanctioned giving land for peace. What I said was that his analytical framework of the halacha is based on the priority of pikuach nefesh. The article you link to just supports that understanding:<br><br><b>In exactly the same way, the only person whose opinion is to be considered as regards retaining or returning parts of the Holy Land is a military expert, a general in the field.</b><br><br>That is, his <b>opposition</b> to land for peace is based on his understanding that it would endanger lives, and is therefore forbidden. (I wonder what he would say when faced with generals who support giving up land...)<br><br>That is, like R' Ovadia and R' Soloveitchik, he sees it as a question of pikuach nefesh; he just disagrees with them on which move endanger lives - holding on to land or giving it up.Zman Biurhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05593492318098902028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7279035.post-5331957474318776802007-10-01T02:55:00.000+02:002007-10-01T02:55:00.000+02:00i'm very impressed by some of the articles i&#...i'm very impressed by some of the articles i've read in your blog<br><br>Regarding the article on pikuach nefesh, I have heard your position backed before and since.. <br><br>-Rabbi meir kahane, <br><br>in this video<br>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5305160067150754572<br>(I think it starts at 14:17)<br><br>and here (this one has parts 1-4)<br>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oguHBnL5UYc<br><br>the google.com link i recall strongly concurs with your argument. A kid asks rabbi kahane 'isnt it true that we should live by the mitzvot and not die by them'.. and he answers in detail. <br><br>He takes the evidence further thna you , in that he gives arguments that it's -never- true for the klal<br><br><br>- rabbi david bar hayyim<br>in audio on his website machonshilo<br>in his 'land for piece' lectures<br>http://machonshilo.org/component/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,63/Itemid,64/<br><br><br>Your thought on this is very lucid. Far more than mine. I'm sure you'll find those links useful.jameshanley39@yahoo.co.ukhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12795729410610350340noreply@blogger.com